View Full Version : Drop Stormherald for S3 Sword?
Xcrcst
10-16-2007, 05:05 PM
Since stormherald's nerf seems to have been minimum, and I spend most of my time in 2s and 3s, I was wondering if this was worth it? Both weapons have equal damage, with the sword having a whole one more high end damage, but the sword has armor pene, resil, and hit rating (which I could use some more of). But the Stormheralds mace stun saves us a lot, so I wasn't sure. It's either grab the sword first or pick up as many pieces of the armor as we can. Any opinions?
sword http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2007/october/s3/greatsword.jpg
Tyreke
10-16-2007, 06:34 PM
Ya I heard mace stun is only being nerfed to 9.8% proc on 3.8 speed weapons, and if thats the case I'll probably stick with Stormherald. I will probably buy the sword though eventually, not after I have all the armor pieces though.
im not going to upgrade to S3 sword immediately, but then again, im a paladin
Edril
10-17-2007, 03:32 AM
Get the season 3 mace. It's the real winner.
Amplified
10-17-2007, 04:38 AM
By far the coolest looking graphic on a sword, ever. Never thought Zin'rokh could look better.
Stormherald's DPS wont be good enough. The 3.8 speed is great, but going to 3.6 speed and a 7 DPS increase is most certainly worth it.
The real question is sword or mace.
Tyreke
10-17-2007, 10:09 AM
s3 weapon only has 1 more top end damage than Stormherald, with mace spec only being nerfed slightly, SH is still good.
Oriyn
10-17-2007, 07:25 PM
Yea S3 only has 1 more top end, but it hits faster than SH does. Then again it doesn't come with the 1.5% weapon stun proc on it either.
Mechwarrior
10-17-2007, 07:27 PM
It has hit, more crit armor penetration and resillience. Stormherald is still viable in s3 but it would be better to grab a S3 weapon. Not immediately, but eventually. Hell, i'm still using DT and my 2 v 2 is doing just fine. But i think going from DT --> S3 Sword is a decently big upgrade. :D
nubbey
10-18-2007, 01:46 AM
man, i've been having a hell of a time deciding what to go. i only care about 5v5, so i'm figuring axe or sword, but maces seem so gamebreaking even post-nerf! and then there's the really super complicated sword vs axe math, which most noobs boil down to 'LOL SWORD SPEC CAN CRIT LOL' but is in fact far deeper:
what about deep wounds and impale?
what if i spec blood frenzy or flurry, wouldn't the uptime be better with axe?
can't sword spec miss/parry/dodge etc?
doesn't the chance for a winning string of crits increase exponentially as you add crit? eg. .33^3 vs .38^3 while sword spec is rare (.05) ?
but then again, resilience does hit axe pretty fucking hard, and sword spec can be pretty fucking nice RNG. has anyone done any conclusive math on this? is there an up to date 2hand dps spreadsheet on elitist jerks, maybe, that could be updated for resil?
One of the largest factors for me with axe vs. sword is that sword is a minimum of double rage (assuming it doesn't crit) 5% of the time on 100 swings. While axe spec is a maximum of double rage 5% of the time on 100 swings (assuming it "procs" on 5 white attacks), but will more than likely only affect white dmg 2-3 times out of the total 5. For me rage = dmg, so sword > axe.
Taking it one step further... more rage = more hamstrings. With hamstring being nerfed to 10 seconds (from 15) this will be greatly enhance your ability to DPS and hamstring multiple targets. And of course pummel proc'ing sword spec for an extra white attack generating normal or double rage.
Taking it yet ANOTHER step further... more hamstrings = more chances for sword spec to proc = more rage. I don't even care about resilience affecting axe more than sword, to me that is a minor part of the equation. What I'd love to do is endless rage + SS for GODLY rage generation, but it appears that deathwish is not being moved after all.
But I am 110% torn between sword vs. mace... I have no idea which I will choose as I enjoy all brackets equally.
Tyreke
10-18-2007, 06:03 AM
Whered you hear that DW isnt being moved?
Whered you hear that DW isnt being moved?
QFT.
It was removed from the patch notes. Please correct me if I am wrong because I sorely want to at least have the option of spec'ing Endless Rage in 2.3.
nubbey
10-18-2007, 05:07 PM
no, it's on the ptr--the forum notes are out of date
well, I'm on the ptr right now and deathwish is still in fury, haven't heard they're not keeping the change.
nubbey
10-18-2007, 09:46 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jardak
10-18-2007, 11:40 PM
i like your outlook on the sword v axe debate Overthrow. i currently use swords, and was deciding b/t axe and sword, due to our racial being changed, but i dont think a 1% extra crit chance would compensate for the same things you've portrayed.
goodolarchie
10-19-2007, 09:01 AM
I think the fact that hamstring procs sword spec greatly favors sword vs axe. Who cares about a hamstring crit. Most warriors will be at least 2/3 imp hs next patch and will be spamming it more either way due to the duration nerf. I never understood the proponents of axe spec. I'd rather get a sword and switch all my gems to smooth dawnstone or whatever if I really wanted that 5% more crit. In 2v2, I swing way too many times not to take advantage of the potential burst of sword, likely several times of every game. Chain crits rarely win games, though I am mace. I don't use mongoose for that reason, and I prefer stacking AP for more consistant non-crit damage and higher potential burst damage. In 5v5, I don't see how axe could be better than sword. If mace spec is still your bag, I consider SH to still be just as good as S3 unless you need the hit/resilience.
nubbey
10-19-2007, 10:30 PM
well, one thing that i thought of recently is that the chance for a winning string of crits is exponentially higher with axes...in fact, it's enough of a difference that it outweighs the chance of a sword spec crit, while doing even more damage (if over a longer time period). in addition, many of you are ignoring deep wounds, flurry, impale (and blood frenzy if you spec for it). also, while a sword spec hamstring is more damage than a crit hamstring, what about a sword spec MS vs a crit MS? if i was an orc, the decision to go axes would be an easy call...but i think i'm gonna do it anyway, even being undead.
also, what are most priests gonna be speccing out of in s3? blessed resilience!
well, one thing that i thought of recently is that the chance for a winning string of crits is exponentially higher with axes...in fact, it's enough of a difference that it outweighs the chance of a sword spec crit, while doing even more damage (if over a longer time period). in addition, many of you are ignoring deep wounds, flurry, impale (and blood frenzy if you spec for it). also, while a sword spec hamstring is more damage than a crit hamstring, what about a sword spec MS vs a crit MS? if i was an orc, the decision to go axes would be an easy call...but i think i'm gonna do it anyway, even being undead.
also, what are most priests gonna be speccing out of in s3? blessed resilience!
Deep wounds and blood frenzy will be up 99% of the time regardless of what spec you choose. Flurry is the only debatable spec that favors axe even a little bit. I Don't even understand your comparison of a sword spec MS vs. a crit MS. They are the roughly the same damage.
Alphatier
10-19-2007, 10:51 PM
also, what are most priests gonna be speccing out of in s3? blessed resilience!
L O L ... a priest will never spec out of blessed resilience, unless he is a shadow priest.
Besides, the fact there is resilience doesn't diminish 5% crit because of the lesser probability to crit. 5% crit is still 5% crit.
But on a geared opponent, a crit will do 20-25% less damage.
Thus, to answer your question, sword proc MS >> axe crit MS
Why? More rage
Final
10-19-2007, 11:44 PM
L O L ... a priest will never spec out of blessed resilience, unless he is a shadow priest.
Besides, the fact there is resilience doesn't diminish 5% crit because of the lesser probability to crit. 5% crit is still 5% crit.
But on a geared opponent, a crit will do 20-25% less damage.
Thus, to answer your question, sword proc MS >> axe crit MS
Why? More rage
I'm speccing disc. Targettable PS and PI for the mage/warlock/elemental is gamebreaking.
nubbey
10-20-2007, 01:11 AM
man you guys are so good at putting doubts in my mind...wtb some definitive math on this ;oooooooooo
soulbane
10-20-2007, 01:48 AM
hey nubbey didnt your team farm an alt team?
nubbey
10-20-2007, 02:17 AM
look! it twitched! beat it some more!
goodolarchie
10-20-2007, 07:59 AM
Your team did do that, and then gloated so you reap what you sow. Moving on though back to a good subject.
I'm not going to break down the theorycraft, I could do fluid dynamics homework if I wanted to do that, but here's some math to help prove my point. Assume a warrior with 33% crit was deciding to spec axe or mace and wanted to theorize what would give reliable burst damage, and more rage for sustained damage. Lets start with some basic mechanics.
Axe spec will provide 5% chance to deal critical damage with axes. This includes hamstring, MS, slam, WW, etc. The ONLY rage affecting mechanic is on white damage crits, you'll see more rage. Against anything that matters, we can assume it has 20-25% crit damage reduction. This means crits are only operating at 80-75% efficiency. You mention the potential to get a longer string of crits, but do the math. .38^n (n=number of crits), the % goes down down down, so your relience on string crits will fail you. Compare the same string to .33^n, that's sword spec guy assuming NO procs. We'll say 4 in a row, a game breaker. Axe = 2.09% Sword =1.19%. Are you really going to rely on that .9% difference?
Now, look at sword's potential. You have a 5% chance on every sword attack to generate a second rage supplying attack that can crit. That means you have a 1.65% chance on every hamstring, MS, Auto, WW etc. to generate 20-30 extra rage on top of the damage. These odds are much more suited to victory. Even if every sword spec proc you get does not crit, it is still 100% efficient, much higher if it did, because it would not affect your controlled attacks. AND YOU GET RAGE!
The stigma about sword vs axe is merely a one of perception. Sword procs are very visible and game breaking when they are there, and blameable when they are not. You might go an entire bout without a proc and think "damn, sword sucks." With axe spec, every crit you get can be looked at like "axe spec rules!" Axe spec heads keep critting so they know their spec is hard at work amirite? Bottom line is the more crit you get through gear, and the more resilience players get, the more lucrative sword becomes. The break even point was way back in S1.
Snuffy
10-20-2007, 09:28 AM
sword looks better
done
yoyoyoyo
10-20-2007, 02:34 PM
sword looks better
done
so true
frogger04
10-20-2007, 03:03 PM
im stuck with the same delema and i really think that swords is the way to go. I think that the 5% for an extra attack that can crit is just so much better than 5% crit. And common it procs off of spamstring, GG.
nubbey
10-20-2007, 03:23 PM
Your team did do that, and then gloated so you reap what you sow. Moving on though back to a good subject.
I'm not going to break down the theorycraft, I could do fluid dynamics homework if I wanted to do that, but here's some math to help prove my point. Assume a warrior with 33% crit was deciding to spec axe or mace and wanted to theorize what would give reliable burst damage, and more rage for sustained damage. Lets start with some basic mechanics.
Axe spec will provide 5% chance to deal critical damage with axes. This includes hamstring, MS, slam, WW, etc. The ONLY rage affecting mechanic is on white damage crits, you'll see more rage. Against anything that matters, we can assume it has 20-25% crit damage reduction. This means crits are only operating at 80-75% efficiency. You mention the potential to get a longer string of crits, but do the math. .38^n (n=number of crits), the % goes down down down, so your relience on string crits will fail you. Compare the same string to .33^n, that's sword spec guy assuming NO procs. We'll say 4 in a row, a game breaker. Axe = 2.09% Sword =1.19%. Are you really going to rely on that .9% difference?
Now, look at sword's potential. You have a 5% chance on every sword attack to generate a second rage supplying attack that can crit. That means you have a 1.65% chance on every hamstring, MS, Auto, WW etc. to generate 20-30 extra rage on top of the damage. These odds are much more suited to victory. Even if every sword spec proc you get does not crit, it is still 100% efficient, much higher if it did, because it would not affect your controlled attacks. AND YOU GET RAGE!
The stigma about sword vs axe is merely a one of perception. Sword procs are very visible and game breaking when they are there, and blameable when they are not. You might go an entire bout without a proc and think "damn, sword sucks." With axe spec, every crit you get can be looked at like "axe spec rules!" Axe spec heads keep critting so they know their spec is hard at work amirite? Bottom line is the more crit you get through gear, and the more resilience players get, the more lucrative sword becomes. The break even point was way back in S1.
very well said, you've eased my sword-going doubts!
I won't quote you Atreis as it is such a long post, but thank you for providing some solid math to what I said earlier. You explained it much more clearly than I did. Good post.
tdark1
10-20-2007, 06:31 PM
Your team did do that, and then gloated so you reap what you sow. Moving on though back to a good subject.
I'm not going to break down the theorycraft, I could do fluid dynamics homework if I wanted to do that, but here's some math to help prove my point. Assume a warrior with 33% crit was deciding to spec axe or mace and wanted to theorize what would give reliable burst damage, and more rage for sustained damage. Lets start with some basic mechanics.
Axe spec will provide 5% chance to deal critical damage with axes. This includes hamstring, MS, slam, WW, etc. The ONLY rage affecting mechanic is on white damage crits, you'll see more rage. Against anything that matters, we can assume it has 20-25% crit damage reduction. This means crits are only operating at 80-75% efficiency. You mention the potential to get a longer string of crits, but do the math. .38^n (n=number of crits), the % goes down down down, so your relience on string crits will fail you. Compare the same string to .33^n, that's sword spec guy assuming NO procs. We'll say 4 in a row, a game breaker. Axe = 2.09% Sword =1.19%. Are you really going to rely on that .9% difference?
Now, look at sword's potential. You have a 5% chance on every sword attack to generate a second rage supplying attack that can crit. That means you have a 1.65% chance on every hamstring, MS, Auto, WW etc. to generate 20-30 extra rage on top of the damage. These odds are much more suited to victory. Even if every sword spec proc you get does not crit, it is still 100% efficient, much higher if it did, because it would not affect your controlled attacks. AND YOU GET RAGE!
The stigma about sword vs axe is merely a one of perception. Sword procs are very visible and game breaking when they are there, and blameable when they are not. You might go an entire bout without a proc and think "damn, sword sucks." With axe spec, every crit you get can be looked at like "axe spec rules!" Axe spec heads keep critting so they know their spec is hard at work amirite? Bottom line is the more crit you get through gear, and the more resilience players get, the more lucrative sword becomes. The break even point was way back in S1.
I just wanted to say, Im not sword, Im mace specced currently. And for some reason (friend of mine uses swords) he was telling me sword specs couldn't proc off MS/WW or other instants. Is he wrong?? Because, if so, I will be going sword in S3.
He was probably talking about windfury, SS can proc off anything.
eskprodigy
10-23-2007, 09:45 AM
I really want to go swords for the bursting opportunities, although mace stun has saved a game countless times. I play on getting a S3 sword, but not until my other gear is complete.
Sword spec:
It can proc off of any yellow attacks.
The proc can crit.
Wait it can be parried/dodged/blocked?
So this may make you think about what you generally focus in arenas...
Locks/SPs/dru (casters basically) are some of those so....
Can these classes parry?
Do these these classes dodge a lot?
Do they wear shields?
But even if you aren't focusing these classes, Do YOU as a warrior KNOW that when you focus a target from behind, these midigations become obselete?
Cerpintaxt
10-24-2007, 12:58 PM
the question for me is...
first week:
Storm herald ==> season 3 sword?
Or pick up some armor first since stunning is massive skill?
Xcrcst
10-24-2007, 01:01 PM
Since they changed the graphic of the S3 mace, i might just pick that up and drop stormherald. The hit, resil, and armor pene could be useful later in the season
Warguyver
10-24-2007, 08:26 PM
The main thing that has me going for axe spec is the fact that flurry uptime increases greatly with an additional 5% increase in crit. As long as flurry is active, I can maintain MS/WW/sunder rotations without a problem.
Furthermore, the 5% increase in crit from axe spec increases your chance to crit streak (let's say 3 crits in a row) to about 1.8% (assuming base crit of 33% against a resilience capped target) whereas without axe spec, the same crit streak would only occur about under 1%.
The other major gripe about sword spec is when avoidance comes to play. Even casters have an average of 5% dodge whereas hunters/rogues/warriors/druids have much higher base avoidance... and let's face it, you can't always get behind your target.
Sword spec:
It can proc off of any yellow attacks.
The proc can crit.
Wait it can be parried/dodged/blocked?
So this may make you think about what you generally focus in arenas...
Locks/SPs/dru (casters basically) are some of those so....
Can these classes parry?
Do these these classes dodge a lot?
Do they wear shields?
But even if you aren't focusing these classes, Do YOU as a warrior KNOW that when you focus a target from behind, these midigations become obselete?
Pretty sure every class can dodge your attack, even if you're attacking from behind.
Snuffy
10-25-2007, 02:08 AM
Pretty sure every class can dodge your attack, even if you're attacking from behind.
...
...
My thoughts exactly.
One may think that players can dodge from behind because if he is playing someone good, they generally try to strafe run so their midigation is still in effect. But surprisingly, I usually fight rogues that just run directly towards their destination without keeping this in mind.
Klint
10-25-2007, 10:06 AM
well then, the real question is, if going for a s3 weapon straight off, s3 mace, or s3 sword?
nubbey
10-25-2007, 04:49 PM
i've thought alot about it and i think that the mace is the clear winner, simply because it addresses certain inherent weaknesses of the class--aka, a lack of CC.
One major thing i didn't see anyone bring up was how well axe goes with a shaman for WF. I've played axe, sword, and mace in 5v5 with WF and there is no doubt in my mind that axe is the best of the 3. With that being said if you dont have WF sword hands down is the way to go and for 2's sword and axe can both go to hell because mace owns them both, hope that helped =)
Genkei
10-26-2007, 08:01 AM
Sword for 5s maybe? SH for 2s and 3s? if you're not a fan of respecing like all the time i suggested just going either or on which ever you're active in or just going maces
Genkei
10-26-2007, 08:01 AM
One major thing i didn't see anyone bring up was how well axe goes with a shaman for WF. I've played axe, sword, and mace in 5v5 with WF and there is no doubt in my mind that axe is the best of the 3. With that being said if you dont have WF sword hands down is the way to go and for 2's sword and axe can both go to hell because mace owns them both, hope that helped =)
i heard that Sword + WF is beast
i heard that Sword + WF is beast
Yes, I have no idea why anyone would even consider axe outside of a 31/30 build. Sword + WF is just disgusting. I play exclusively with a resto shaman in all brackets and have recently switched from DT to the s2 sword (wtb s3 already!) and don't miss mace stun at all. However, I've been screwing around in 2v2 with a paladin friend to help him get better and find myself missing mace stun.
w/ shaman: sword
w/ paladin: mace
w/ druid: mace
The only time I would even consider axe is in a 31/30 flurry build, but even then I'd probably stick to swords. Swords are just vastly superior to axes in all aspects of PvP.
Yes, I have no idea why anyone would even consider axe outside of a 31/30 build. Sword + WF is just disgusting. I play exclusively with a resto shaman in all brackets and have recently switched from DT to the s2 sword (wtb s3 already!) and don't miss mace stun at all. However, I've been screwing around in 2v2 with a paladin friend to help him get better and find myself missing mace stun.
w/ shaman: sword
w/ paladin: mace
w/ druid: mace
The only time I would even consider axe is in a 31/30 flurry build, but even then I'd probably stick to swords. Swords are just vastly superior to axes in all aspects of PvP.
Not sure if you knew this but sword spec can not proc a WF nor can Wf proc a sword spec but axe can increase your chance to crit when WF procs which is very nice b/c WF proc also gives you extra attack power for the proc'd white hit which makes axe have much better synergy with WF then sword could
Partially wrong, windfury procs can proc sword spec.
Partially wrong, windfury procs can proc sword spec.
Wrong sorry. Blizz changed it a few patches ago and sword spec can not proc off windfury anymore
Wrong sorry. Blizz changed it a few patches ago and sword spec can not proc off windfury anymore
Dude I raid with Cataclysm's edge sword spec CAN proc off wf
Ihsahn
10-29-2007, 12:19 AM
Wrong sorry. Blizz changed it a few patches ago and sword spec can not proc off windfury anymore
No... Sword spec CANNOT proc off each other, it can still proc off WF totem.
I've seen many times that I get double EXTRA ATTACKS from my SCT, it has to be WF and SS procs off each other since SS can no longer proc from its own.
Bulzok
10-29-2007, 02:32 PM
I'm pretty sure wf can only proc off white hits anymore, but sword spec can proc off anything but itself.
Double extra attacks could easily be SS and WF proccing off the same white hit, or even a white hit/WF and MS/SS proc within an instant of each other.
goodolarchie
10-30-2007, 04:45 AM
There seems to be confusion. WF can proc sword SPEC procs. What they fixed was things like Despair's impale ability to gib somebody in the following matter:
Auto crit: 1400
MS crit: 1800
WF crit: 1350
SS crit: 1400
Impale proc crit: 1200
total instant damage: 7150
I shit you not, this used to happen to me back in season 1 with a Resto Sham + Despair, and it was rediculous. You can see why such procs were nerfed. That doesn't mean the same thing couldn't happen in different order, however.
There seems to be confusion. WF can proc sword SPEC procs. What they fixed was things like Despair's impale ability to gib somebody in the following matter:
Auto crit: 1400
MS crit: 1800
WF crit: 1350
SS crit: 1400
Impale proc crit: 1200
total instant damage: 7150
I shit you not, this used to happen to me back in season 1 with a Resto Sham + Despair, and it was rediculous. You can see why such procs were nerfed. That doesn't mean the same thing couldn't happen in different order, however.
since when does WF hit for less than auto attack!
Cerenity
11-03-2007, 03:38 AM
I am debating on getting s3 mace or sword as well the decission is extremely hard and i am busting my head trying to decide if i want the burst or extra cc kinda thing with stuns. I'm prob gonna stick it out with SH for a bit and get the armor first tho.
Jackal
11-03-2007, 06:11 AM
Thats a good question, I'm gonna try swords out hope it works out for the best ><
nubbey
11-03-2007, 10:09 AM
you can't go wrong with adding an extra form of CC to a class that inherently has little to none
goodolarchie
11-06-2007, 08:59 AM
since when does WF hit for less than auto attack!
Those were just proposed numbers. You're probably right, it wouldn't, but sadly with 2h damage range its quite feasible.
Inactive19
11-07-2007, 08:34 PM
I'm going to be using Stormherald and pick up the gear first (mainly because of BT Gems) then I'm going to decide if I want to pick up S3 mace (I probably will just for the defensive stats vs some teams). After that I'll just choose which one I prefer the most, maybe pick up a sword /shrug.
Unraveller
11-08-2007, 10:26 AM
Mace Warriors are the only people who think Axe/Sword-spec is better.
Every other class in the game knows better.
sabered
11-08-2007, 10:32 AM
Since stormherald's nerf seems to have been minimum, and I spend most of my time in 2s and 3s, I was wondering if this was worth it? Both weapons have equal damage, with the sword having a whole one more high end damage, but the sword has armor pene, resil, and hit rating (which I could use some more of). But the Stormheralds mace stun saves us a lot, so I wasn't sure. It's either grab the sword first or pick up as many pieces of the armor as we can. Any opinions?
sword http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2007/october/s3/greatsword.jpg
you also gotta look at your current hit, and subtract some as they're lowering the hit on vengeful gladiators. Being below 5% is killer =( specially against frost mages.
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