[5v5] Strange 5v5 team - 5th place in battlegroup

[Hexagon]

http://armory.wow-europe.com/team-info.xml?r=Ysondre&ts=5&t=Jean+Claude+ConvenanT&select=Jean+Claude+ConvenanT&fl=1

Holy pally, ret pally, hunter, healing shaman, warrior.

weird eh?

[Hexagon]

Here's another impressive team. 65 wins 1 loss.

98% winning record.

http://armory.wow-europe.com/team-info.xml?r=Al'Akir&ts=5&t=Victorinox&select=Victorinox&fl=1

[Rhaegyn]

http://armory.wow-europe.com/team-info.xml?r=Ysondre&ts=5&t=Jean+Claude+ConvenanT&select=Jean+Claude+ConvenanT&fl=1

Holy pally, ret pally, hunter, healing shaman, warrior.

weird eh?

I think that pally might respec holy for arenas. He has 1 piece of ret merciless gear, compared to the 5+ pieces everyone else has.

[TurranMC]

I think that pally might respec holy for arenas. He has 1 piece of ret merciless gear, compared to the 5+ pieces everyone else has.Uhh he has 4 piece Season 1.. There could be a million reasons why he doesn't have 5/5 Merciless Ret gear.. Off the top of my head I would guess he has 2-3 pieces but is using the Season 1 Gladiator for the set bonus. Either way, hes heardly undergeared if thats what you are trying to suggest.

[Toroko]

I ran into a team using this setup the other day and it was very annoying to face. When you first look at the makeup it looks like it's going to be an easy win, but the match was actually pretty difficult.

[Ayas]

I've actually ran into a mini verison of that group in 3v3, with a warrior ret pally resto shaman. At first I thought it was going to be a easy win (kinda was but it we almost lost our healer) Basically you get thrown off guard by the whole omg that pally just crit in the face factor and you don't really expect it. After figuring out specs you would realize how easy it is to counter as well. Paladins are open to disarm and when you hamstring both, only one can keep up with their target. Its easy to kite their DPS. If you also have a priest, 3-4 mana burns on the ret pally makes him utterly useless. A OOM ret pally is basically a weaker version of an auto attacking warrior. It can't really contend in top 10 teams, but can farm other teams due to the surprise factor. A ret pally doesn't bring anything to the table that really helps the team other than mediocre DPS and extra blessings.

[blackfoot]

yah but its different in 3v3. In 5v5 they have the hunter which will slow your whole team and they have the holy pally which adds another bof so 2 targets can move. With so much plate and melee ownage they can own cloth and keep up with it, and the shammy will lust them and can purge like mad if he doesnt have to heal much, plus wf procs? gg its a nice combo. Gonna take some finesse to cc the warrior + holy pally and purge/kill the ret pally and force their resto sham to heal and use up his mana. MS on the ret pally and he'll go down if the holy pally is getting cc'ed and the warrior too. Meanwhile all through this you have to be line of sighting the hunter.

[icenine]

Make sure when you're looking up teams on the armory that you look at what battlegroup they are in. Win percentage means nothing, in fact a high win percentage means one of two things:

A. They just reformed last week and are climbing the ladder again gliding along on the scrub teams as they make their way up the ladder.

B. They're in a dead battlegroup cluster that has virtually no competition.

I play on Bloodlust which is known to be a highly competative PvP cluster, and let me tell you asides from a few teams that use the quit-the-second-you-lose strategy (which also improves your win ratio) none of our top rated teams have anywhere near a 91% win ratio. It's impossible, the competition is simply too steep, our top teams are sporting a 70% win ratio at best.

Simply put, win ratio means nothing. And when you see odd combos at high rankings it's usually because they play on a dead battlegroup cluster.

[Baconn]

Not going to lie, a lot of teams I fight we win mostly because people expect me to be healing, and then me and my warrior partner kill one of them near instantaneously.

It's not a bad combo, we do well enough, but we have problems fighting ice mages (go figure), 3 dps teams and atm, shadow teams. We'll see about that after the resilience change.

[Hexagon]

Make sure when you're looking up teams on the armory that you look at what battlegroup they are in. Win percentage means nothing, in fact a high win percentage means one of two things:

A. They just reformed last week and are climbing the ladder again gliding along on the scrub teams as they make their way up the ladder.

B. They're in a dead battlegroup cluster that has virtually no competition.

I play on Bloodlust which is known to be a highly competative PvP cluster, and let me tell you asides from a few teams that use the quit-the-second-you-lose strategy (which also improves your win ratio) none of our top rated teams have anywhere near a 91% win ratio. It's impossible, the competition is simply too steep, our top teams are sporting a 70% win ratio at best.

Simply put, win ratio means nothing. And when you see odd combos at high rankings it's usually because they play on a dead battlegroup cluster.

Did you even check them out before you started spouting nonsense? The team is 8th place in a high population battlegroup with a 98% win ratio. Congratulations on your "highly competitive pvp cluster" tho. We're all very impressed.

[Arath]

Victorinox (the team with a 65-1 win ratio) is the new home of Inflame/Rapidload (From feel the pain, top 5v5 team of last season)....probably part of the reason they have such a great win %.

[icenine]

Make sure when you're looking up teams on the armory that you look at what battlegroup they are in. Win percentage means nothing, in fact a high win percentage means one of two things:

A. They just reformed last week and are climbing the ladder again gliding along on the scrub teams as they make their way up the ladder.

B. They're in a dead battlegroup cluster that has virtually no competition.

I play on Bloodlust which is known to be a highly competative PvP cluster, and let me tell you asides from a few teams that use the quit-the-second-you-lose strategy (which also improves your win ratio) none of our top rated teams have anywhere near a 91% win ratio. It's impossible, the competition is simply too steep, our top teams are sporting a 70% win ratio at best.

Simply put, win ratio means nothing. And when you see odd combos at high rankings it's usually because they play on a dead battlegroup cluster.

Did you even check them out before you started spouting nonsense? The team is 8th place in a high population battlegroup with a 98% win ratio. Congratulations on your "highly competitive pvp cluster" tho. We're all very impressed.

My statements are still completely true, the only way you could have a 98% win ratio is if you never ever saw any other good teams (like I said no competition) if you play other good teams you are bound to lose some. It's as simple as that. It's impossible to stay at such a high win ratio over a long term 600 games + unless you never ran across anyone remotely near your skill.

You say this server cluster is of a "high population" but relative to what?

Edit: You know the funny thing about this is that I wouldn't have ever realized that the different battlegroups mean so much as to what your ranking *means* except that I would often browse the official WoW forums and see "high rated" people saying things about PvP that were clearly completely untrue, and completely uninformed. It was only after some guildmates told me to look at their battlegroup cluster that I realized that it was because these teams don't play on a very competative cluster, so they can get away with odd tactics and combos that would never ever fly on a more competative battlegroup.

Anyways, Irahi has posted some numbers if you don't believe me and think I'm just being an elitest jerk :P

[icenine]

Victorinox (the team with a 65-1 win ratio) is the new home of Inflame/Rapidload (From feel the pain, top 5v5 team of last season)....probably part of the reason they have such a great win %.

Again this isn't very many games, I myself had around a 50-1 win ratio when I reformed a team and reclimbed ladder. In order to get a real sense of the team you'd have to see how they did keeping their rank at a high rating for an extended amount of time, so how they did facing teams of their gear and skill level only. This would only be shown if they had a least a couple hundred games logged.

Edit: and even then, after they've logged a few hundred games facing the *best* of what their cluster has to offer if they still maintained a high win ratio (90%+) it would only mean the *best* of that battlegroup wasn't very good.

You need a massive number of people playing competitively to end up with real competition at the high end. Bloodlust only has really about 20 teams vying for the top positions and this coming from a server often deemed "LagRock" because our server is so overpopulated we often had to wait in long queues just to log in on weekends, and the server would randomly crash due to too many people in cities etc. (they've recently fixed this by offering many free character transfers off our server, but my point remains).

So when you think about bloodlust only having around 20 seriously competative teams for 5v5 on servers that are jam packed. You can easily see that less populated servers would have very little competition at the high end bracket.

[Irahi]

Did you even check them out before you started spouting nonsense? The team is 8th place in a high population battlegroup with a 98% win ratio. Congratulations on your "highly competitive pvp cluster" tho. We're all very impressed.

Uh, I just went and actually looked at the team in question... 2078 rating for 8th place? That means that their battlegroup most certainly is not high population. I also notice that their win ratio has gone far down already, I wonder why that would be?

Maybe, because instead of playing the 1500 and onward teams that you play while ranking a team up, they're playing the other high rated teams on the battlegroup and... *gasp*! It turns out they're a little more difficult. They also have just a hair over 100 games played, that's basically nothing, you could nearly get that many just traveling up to 2k if you fought low rated teams on the way.

EDIT: Just to put it in perspective, I gathered some super happy fun numbers. Bloodlust has 2,144 teams that are rated above 1500 (meaning they're active and have actually tried to win games.) Vengeance (the battlegroup this team is from) has 342 teams rated above 1500. With more than six times the number of teams playing, the competition is basically gauranteed to be much steeper. In fact, with so few teams playing, you'd basically have to talk to the other teams and plan times to play against eachother for hard games which... as you may imagine most people aren't usually inclined to seek out tough opponents.

[untitled2jc]

[quote=Hexagon]

EDIT: Just to put it in perspective, I gathered some super happy fun numbers. Bloodlust has 2,144 teams that are rated above 1500 (meaning they're active and have actually tried to win games.) Vengeance (the battlegroup this team is from) has 342 teams rated above 1500. With more than six times the number of teams playing, the competition is basically gauranteed to be much steeper. In fact, with so few teams playing, you'd basically have to talk to the other teams and plan times to play against eachother for hard games which... as you may imagine most people aren't usually inclined to seek out tough opponents.

Uh a 2000 rating team is nowhere near 8th in Vengeance? maybe you have the wrong bgroup name? =X havn't actually read the post not going to lie, but we have alot of 2100+ teams =X

or maybe i dont know the right name, I am pretty bad =X

[Rhaegyn]

[quote=Hexagon]

EDIT: Just to put it in perspective, I gathered some super happy fun numbers. Bloodlust has 2,144 teams that are rated above 1500 (meaning they're active and have actually tried to win games.) Vengeance (the battlegroup this team is from) has 342 teams rated above 1500. With more than six times the number of teams playing, the competition is basically gauranteed to be much steeper. In fact, with so few teams playing, you'd basically have to talk to the other teams and plan times to play against eachother for hard games which... as you may imagine most people aren't usually inclined to seek out tough opponents.

Uh a 2000 rating team is nowhere near 8th in Vengeance? maybe you have the wrong bgroup name? =X havn't actually read the post not going to lie, but we have alot of 2100+ teams =X

It's a European battlegroup.

[Hexagon]

Anyways, Irahi has posted some numbers if you don't believe me and think I'm just being an elitest jerk :P

I don't think you are being an elitist jerk, I think you are just saying stupid things. The competitiveness of a realm can ONLY be determined by its population. "I think battlegroup A is tougher than battlegroup B, therefore battlegroup B's high rating teams are not very good" is a very dumb thing for anyone to say unless the populations are drastically different.



Uh, I just went and actually looked at the team in question... 2078 rating for 8th place? That means that their battlegroup most certainly is not high population. I also notice that their win ratio has gone far down already, I wonder why that would be?

Maybe, because instead of playing the 1500 and onward teams that you play while ranking a team up, they're playing the other high rated teams on the battlegroup and... *gasp*! It turns out they're a little more difficult. They also have just a hair over 100 games played, that's basically nothing, you could nearly get that many just traveling up to 2k if you fought low rated teams on the way.

EDIT: Just to put it in perspective, I gathered some super happy fun numbers. Bloodlust has 2,144 teams that are rated above 1500 (meaning they're active and have actually tried to win games.) Vengeance (the battlegroup this team is from) has 342 teams rated above 1500. With more than six times the number of teams playing, the competition is basically gauranteed to be much steeper. In fact, with so few teams playing, you'd basically have to talk to the other teams and plan times to play against eachother for hard games which... as you may imagine most people aren't usually inclined to seek out tough opponents.


News flash, they aren't on vengeance. They still have only 1 loss, and their rating is nearly 2300. I guess they just havent fought any good teams yet because they're just getting started tho. Fantastic work detective.





Uh a 2000 rating team is nowhere near 8th in Vengeance? maybe you have the wrong bgroup name? =X havn't actually read the post not going to lie, but we have alot of 2100+ teams =X

or maybe i dont know the right name, I am pretty bad =X

wtf ur all taking stupid pills


Edit: Rhaegyn, you are the light in a sea of dark. I really mean that. :)
Edit2: I don't mean to be a jerk, but I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. /facepalm

[blackfoot]

hey if ur in the mood for flaming people go to the wow forums.

its understandable about the confusion, the fact that many people refer to the european battlegroups without explicitly saying so throws a lot of people off.

[Irahi]

News flash, they aren't on vengeance. They still have only 1 loss, and their rating is nearly 2300. I guess they just havent fought any good teams yet because they're just getting started tho. Fantastic work detective.


Really? They aren't on Vengeance?

So when you click on that armory link, and it says "Vengeance" right below the team name, that doesn't mean they're actually on Vengeance? It's just a ploy by the Man to throw us off?

I guess when I click on links, it sends me to a bizarro armory that displays magically wrong information. When I click on Jean Claude ConvenanT, I get a team that's 7th place, with 2096 rating, on the Vengeance battlegroup. I can screenshot it if you'd like.

I don't think you are being an elitist jerk, I think you are just saying stupid things. The competitiveness of a realm can ONLY be determined by its population. "I think battlegroup A is tougher than battlegroup B, therefore battlegroup B's high rating teams are not very good" is a very dumb thing for anyone to say unless the populations are drastically different.


The populations ARE drastically different. You should read before spouting stupid crap, please.

[Kazaganthi]

BLoodlust is probably the strongest battlegroup. He really isn't lying. I played there pre TBC. I then transferred to Stormstrike to play with some friends. I can remember laughing at how much easier it was than Bloodlust. That isn't to say the Stormstrike is bad, just that Bloodlust was on a different level. As we've entered season 2, I've seen a marked increase in the quality of pvpers in Stormstrike esp on Ally side....Now no top team is going to keep a 98% win rating. It just isn't going to happen if you fight against good people. Even the best have bad days.

Kaz

[icenine]

I don't think you are being an elitist jerk, I think you are just saying stupid things. The competitiveness of a realm can ONLY be determined by its population. "I think battlegroup A is tougher than battlegroup B, therefore battlegroup B's high rating teams are not very good" is a very dumb thing for anyone to say unless the populations are drastically different.

The populations are drastically different, I don't know how you can't get that ~2100 teams over 1500 rating Versus ~300 teams over 1500 rating is a huge damn difference.

I never said one battlegroup was "tougher" than another battlegroup, I said some battlegroups have more teams, therefore competition is fiercer.

It's rather easy to distinguish between these battlegroups simply by looking at things like win ratio, and ranking. If you see a team thats 8th place at a 2k rating, you can assume that their battlegroup doesn't have very many teams playing to feed points into the system, since in crowded battlegroups a 2k rating will only net you 200th place or so. I could be wrong but I'd say this is a pretty drastic difference. While I do say bloodlust is especially competative pvp wise, I only mean that as a direct relationship to the fact that the servers in that cluster are overpopulated which gives them enough of a population to breed a ton of skilled teams and players.

[Higurashi]

Vengence..............................1798
EU-Vengeance.......................~342

kthnx

The fact that there are more teams over 1500 for any battlegroup is only reflective of the quantity of teams competing and not the quality. Since the arena point system works by subtracting the exact same points awarded for win/loss... there must be teams below 1500 for there to be teams above 1500.

2144 -- Bloodlust could mean that there are more teams playing... but it could also mean that there are more scrub teams playing. to put your "super happy fun numbers" into perspective you will to account for the fact that BL is one of the most populated battlegroups.


good mens -- ranked 6th in Bloodlust (alts) -- 67% win/loss
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Tichondrius&ts=5&t=good+mens&select=good+mens&fl=1

good mens -- ranked 55th in Vengeance (mains) -- 68% win/loss
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Korgath&ts=5&t=good+mens&select=good+mens